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11 October 2009 @ 09:10 pm
I would not like John Ottinger III to shut up  
ETA2: Two important notes:
1. [info]johnottinger has apologized in comments here as well as on his blog. While I agree that one does not always get a cookie, I'd like to point this out as an apology that is clear and sincere in tone, without any of the hedges we've seen too often in this sort of discussion.
2. Since he also deleted his original post, I've linked to a cached page for context. It won't last long, but it ought to last as long as anyone's interest in my post, and while I am for keeping records I don't feel comfortable mirroring something the poster has chosen to delete and apologize for.



But he would like me to shut up. And an awful lot of people on my f-list too. (Via [info]charlesatan).

It's not just that he disagrees with us about the importance of non-privilege groups being represented in anthologies, mind -- it's that he would like us to STFU and stop harshing his squee. And apparently he is secure enough in his entitlement to believe that telling us to do so will be successful; thus the brilliant and subtle title of his essay: "For Those Who Cry Sexism or Racism in SF Anthologies, Shut Up."

In explaining why we should STFU like good little subhumans, John Ottinger III hits some points that we've Never Ever Thought Of Before because we are not as smart as him. Like:



- Completely ridiculous made-up groups are also underrepresented!

"I've had it with the constant allegations that this editor or that, when designing an anthology, did not include enough women or minorities or yellow flowered harpsichords."

- Editors are looking for good fiction, so if all their picks are old white men maybe only old white men write good fiction. Huh? Huh? We ever considered that?

"I don't think these editors set out to create anthologies that have too few women or minorities. I think they have a goal to provide good fiction on whatever topic or theme they have chosen, and they pick the very best works that are submitted to them."

- Markers of fairness are arbitrary. There is absolutely no reason to the people pointing out that certain groups are statistically underrepresented:

"As a reader, I want the editor to do her/his job and give me stories I want to read, not hit some arbitrary marker of fairness to minorities or women."

Now obviously, since as proven above "women and minorities" (glad he knows women aren't a minority!) are being excluded because we're just not as good as old white men, including us would diminish the Objective Quality of anthologies. (We'd never have considered tokenism, right, without John Ottinger III's help?) This is important to understand, because his entire argument rests upon this premise. He allows that there is racism and sexism in the field, but despite that, he knows that they have nothing to do with whose stories get picked!!

This leads logically to the next point:

- We Whiners shall therefore silence the "women and minorities" currently making it into anthologies, because nobody's going to want to pick up an anthology with a lot of girlynames and funnynames in the TOC.

"Additionally, they may turn some readers away from reading a good anthology that has great works by women or minorities in it, thereby silencing the great work of those women or minorities who are included in the anthology."

- We don't care about any axis of oppression other than race and gender. After all, he's never noticed us pointing out the underrepresentation of any other group, so it's never happened. Also, nobody ever derails these discussions by bringing up ridiculously irrelevant groups that are not in any way oppressed in order to ignore the fact that the relevant groups are. Naaah.

"And what about all those folks that don't get enough exposure in SF that are not women or minorities? There are not enough Christians, Islamists*, or transgendered** writers represented in most anthologies either. Nor are there enough writers who own dogs."

* Either he doesn't know the word "Muslim", or he only means fundamentalist Muslims because there's quite enough moderate Islam represented in SF/F tyvm and he doesn't care what people call themselves.
** Apparently John Ottinger III does not think trans people are a minority.

- What we should do is give a BIG HAND to those gals and colored folk who've made it into anthologies despite racism and misogyny, cause they're actually good! Why aren't we doing that, huh?

What should be done is highlighting those female or minority authors who write great fiction, who do appear in these male-dominated anthologies, and who have written such a great work of fiction that their work had to appear in the anthology.

- But he's not racist or sexist! Why, he can name five women and two "minorities" he reads! So there.

Now, before people say I am a sexist or racist, let's make something clear. I think there are many minorities and women in fiction who write great narratives. Most of my favorite authors are women, like Karen Miller, Elizabeth Moon, Kristine Kathryn Rusch, and Susanna Clarke. I also love the work of David Anthony Durham, or Nalo Hopkinson and others who are minorities in a white male dominated genre.

- Will nobody think of the poor editors??!

So to all those who keep pointing out there are X women and Y men in anthology I say: Let's give these great and skilled editors a rest, and let them include the stories that are the best works possible without worry of being assessed on something less important than quality.

- Bonus: If we speak up, editors might listen! Oh noes! (Or actually, since John Ottinger III cannot keep track of his negatives, oh yesses!

Do I think that maybe women and minorities are not getting their due in SF? Maybe, but I don't believe that pointing out every time an anthology does not have an equal number of women or minorities is not helpful. It forces editors to make sacrifices, to choose to please those with the loudest voices rather than the real readers, the ones who prefer an anthology of quality over some middling effort that avoids the appearance of sexism or racism.



Right. Aren't we all glad that John Ottinger III has set us straight before that happened?


On a more serious note, I'm very glad indeed that John Ottinger III has spoken up, and would hate for him and people like him to shut up or to be made to shut up, because I now know exactly where he stands.

And, if I've repeated his name often enough, so do you.

ETA: I've posted about John Ottinger III because of the mentality rather than the individual, but sometimes the individual matters too. On which note, it's worth noting that the first response, wholeheartedly agreeing with what he says, comes from one Barbara Friend Ish of Mercury Retrograde Press.
 
 
Current Mood: annoyedexasperated
 
 
( 67 comments — Leave a comment )
quasi random[info]kaolinfire on October 12th, 2009 04:46 am (UTC)
Thank you for that. Read his post a few days ago but couldn't think of anything to say besides *guh*
shweta_narayan[info]shweta_narayan on October 12th, 2009 04:53 am (UTC)
Oh I'm saying *guh* too, just more wordily :)

Really all I've done here is repeat/rephrase what he John Ottinger III says. It is its own parody.
(no subject) - [info]kaolinfire on October 12th, 2009 05:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shweta_narayan on October 12th, 2009 05:04 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lightcastle on October 12th, 2009 04:47 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 03:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shweta_narayan on October 12th, 2009 05:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes on October 12th, 2009 03:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lightcastle on October 12th, 2009 04:48 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 03:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]joeboo_k on October 12th, 2009 10:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 03:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
Nevankins[info]eimhinjensen on October 12th, 2009 05:14 am (UTC)
oh superb,
i said it all in the subject, there. this is a great line-by-line of his salient points.
shweta_narayan[info]shweta_narayan on October 12th, 2009 05:38 am (UTC)
Re: oh superb,
Thank you :)

Though I just realized I missed the part where editors only want to not look racist/sexist. They have no interest in not being racist/sexist, on John Ottinger III's planet.
(no subject) - [info]eimhinjensen on October 12th, 2009 07:27 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 03:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
N. K. Jemisin: GaleStab[info]nojojojo on October 12th, 2009 05:27 am (UTC)
RAGE.

Posted something on his site. Probably a bad idea given that he's a reviewer and I've got a book coming out, but fuck it. Not like he's going to think much of my work anyway, given all the unquestioned biases he's spewing.
shweta_narayan[info]shweta_narayan on October 12th, 2009 05:37 am (UTC)
Oh is that what he is?

I would guess that if he is unprofessional enough to respond to your comment by panning your book, it'd be giving you free publicity. Because that... would be noticed.
(no subject) - [info]shweta_narayan on October 12th, 2009 05:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nojojojo on October 12th, 2009 05:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shweta_narayan on October 12th, 2009 05:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]redbird on October 12th, 2009 12:02 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 03:51 am (UTC) (Expand)
Jules (writing when she gets work): count cain[info]seajules on October 12th, 2009 06:41 am (UTC)
I don't believe that pointing out every time an anthology does not have an equal number of women or minorities is not helpful.

I don't believe it's not helpful, either, so we should definitely keep doing it.

*smiles with teeth*
shweta_narayan: iggles[info]shweta_narayan on October 12th, 2009 08:52 am (UTC)
*grins back*

It does entirely miss the point that nobody's even calling for equal representation so much as less appalling representation, but then, I sort of ran out of fingers when tallying the points missed.
Zeborah[info]zeborahnz on October 12th, 2009 06:52 am (UTC)
John Ottinger III wrote:
It forces editors to make sacrifices, to choose to please those with the loudest voices rather than the real readers

Ah, as opposed to us fake readers.
shweta_narayan[info]shweta_narayan on October 12th, 2009 08:50 am (UTC)
Yep. I guess [info]elsmi is the real reader in our household. Or at least, the one Mr. Ottinger would take for a real reader.
Athena Andreadis, aka Helivoy[info]helivoy on October 12th, 2009 06:57 am (UTC)
We are NOT worthy
What can I say? The man's brilliance and originality are blinding! Oh, wait, I did say something ere he descended from on high to bring the tablets of truth to us ignorant morons: Is It Something in the Water? Or: Me Tarzan, You Ape
shweta_narayan[info]shweta_narayan on October 12th, 2009 08:48 am (UTC)
Re: We are NOT worthy
hee :)





(Note, though: I'd query the use of "morons" here; I suppose it doesn't really have the clinical meaning of severe cognitive impairment any more, but I'm trying to rethink ablist language in general.)
Nalo Hopkinson[info]nnaloh on October 12th, 2009 08:35 am (UTC)
I also love the work of David Anthony Durham, or Nalo Hopkinson

Wow. With admirers like this, who needs detractors? How can he have missed the point that everything about my writing and anthology editing and how I approach them is in opposition to attitudes such as his?
shweta_narayan: aieeee[info]shweta_narayan on October 12th, 2009 08:45 am (UTC)
How can he have missed the point that everything about my writing and anthology editing and how I approach them is in opposition to attitudes such as his?

I've been trying to figure that out myself. I guess he might have figured that you got a diverse anthology by random chance. (and Whispers from the Cotton Tree Root wouldn't really count, I suppose, being preselected for Caribbean writers?)

But even so, how in the world did he get through a story of yours without figuring out that your identity affects your writing?
(no subject) - [info]nnaloh on October 12th, 2009 09:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shweta_narayan on October 12th, 2009 09:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nnaloh on October 12th, 2009 11:22 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 03:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
Tithenai: girlgenius rage[info]tithenai on October 12th, 2009 10:29 am (UTC)
I am shaking like an autumn leaf. Thank you so bloody much for this, lady, because if I'd read that monstrosity without having snark to back it up I'd have gotten nothing done today -- and it's not even noon, so thank you for rescuing my productivity.

My RAGE is undiminished, but it is at least channeled through grrful laughter rather than keyboard mashing. Although speaking of that, WTF is up with all his comments being in caps?
shweta_narayan: authorpic1[info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 04:02 am (UTC)
*hugs*
I'm glad you didn't lose productivity! I value your productivity :)

My rage is much deiminshed by the apology below; I don't, of course, speak for anyone else, but figured you might like a pointer to it.
Tithenai[info]tithenai on October 12th, 2009 10:31 am (UTC)
Addendum. Thank you ESPECIALLY much for the following:

* Either he doesn't know the word "Muslim", or he only means fundamentalist Muslims because there's quite enough moderate Islam represented in SF/F tyvm and he doesn't care what people call themselves.

There is not enough ranty flail in the world. But GF will be up today. GF will counter the fail slantwise if not head-on. GF will make everything better with its issue of doomy doomfulness. GF will be cathartic. *breathes*
shweta_narayan: mangatar[info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 04:13 am (UTC)
Yay for GF!

Also, thanks for this really go to [info]elsmi, who caught it while I was stuck on "Wait, trans isn't a minority?"
Tithenai[info]tithenai on October 12th, 2009 10:37 am (UTC)
Spamming your comment field to say, incidentally, I can't believe we haven't actually met. The fact causes me pain at the moment as I ever so badly want to hug you for this.
shweta_narayan: iggles[info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 04:15 am (UTC)
It does seem silly, doesn't it? And internet hugs are not at all the same thing.

But rest assured I will hunt you down, lady, if I don't get to meet you in a more civilized manner *grins*
joycemocha[info]joycemocha on October 12th, 2009 12:50 pm (UTC)
Sigh. Just--sigh.

That said, I'm with you on having him speak out. He's a reviewer? Now I know what his biases are.

Thanks for the snark, too.
shweta_narayan: mangatar[info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 04:19 am (UTC)
Sigh indeed.
But:pointer to apology below.
Dr. Kvetch: what?[info]rose_lemberg on October 12th, 2009 01:16 pm (UTC)
enough women or minorities or yellow flowered harpsichords.

And lettuce. Don't forget lettuce.

In fact, now I think about it, we've been demoted - at least lettuce is alive (in a way).



Samantha Henderson[info]samhenderson on October 12th, 2009 04:50 pm (UTC)
NEVER FORGET THE LETTUCE!
FOR THE LETTUCE IS US!
(no subject) - [info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 04:17 am (UTC) (Expand)
Amazon[info]amazon_syren on October 12th, 2009 02:57 pm (UTC)
That's... kind of mind-boggling.

I really don't understand how someone can walk around in circles in their heads like that and not see the obvious elephant in there with them.

It's really bizzarre...

<*shakes head*>
shweta_narayan: authorpic1[info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 04:25 am (UTC)
Nick Mamatas: $[info]nihilistic_kid on October 12th, 2009 04:28 pm (UTC)
Is it Monday again already?
shweta_narayan: mangatar[info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 04:25 am (UTC)
It's Tuesday in the UK now.

*helpful, as always*
Samantha Henderson: kettuce[info]samhenderson on October 12th, 2009 04:49 pm (UTC)
Wow.

I especially enjoy the "don't you dare think I'm racist or sexist, because I'm telling you I'm not, and the fact I think I'm not is sufficient proof, so shut up."

Well allrighty then.
shweta_narayan[info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 05:05 am (UTC)
Yeah that one's a trap I'm glad I've seen others fall into because I could very easily have fallen into it too, bigtime. "What do you mean I'm X? I'm totally not X, or I'd know it!"
(no subject) - [info]samhenderson on October 13th, 2009 06:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
johnottinger[info]johnottinger on October 12th, 2009 05:10 pm (UTC)
Sorry
Thanks for posting this about my vitriolic rant. I wanted to apologize to you personally and admit I was wrong. After reading your commentary, I realize just how small-minded and illogical I was being.

I am sorry. I ask your forgiveness.
shweta_narayan: authorpic1[info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 03:07 am (UTC)
Re: Sorry
Apology accepted.

I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but I hope you'll keep feeling able to participate in these discussions. A lot of people here (including writers like Nora and Nalo) have very much influenced my position on these matters, so I'm the last person to assume that anyone's position has to stay static.
(no subject) - [info]nnaloh on October 13th, 2009 06:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dsmoen on October 15th, 2009 03:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
Sharon Mock[info]kirizal on October 12th, 2009 05:17 pm (UTC)
He's taken down his rant, and posted an apology.

I'll leave it to others to accept or reject the apology, since I came to the discussion too late to react to the original post. (Edited [very quickly] to remove inappropriate and unintended snark. Sorry 'bout that.)

Edited at 2009-10-12 05:19 pm (UTC)
shweta_narayan: iggles[info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 05:06 am (UTC)
Can't be having unintended snark.
(hi!)
mouse[info]jen_deben on October 12th, 2009 07:27 pm (UTC)
Thank you for this.

Reading his post first would have just left me going *flaily-flail-RAGE*, whereas reading yours gives me clarity. You point out very succinctly why his arguments are so wrong-headed and arrogant. Thank you again.
shweta_narayan[info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 05:11 am (UTC)
I am very glad to have provided clarity. It was in part my way of venting, but I'm glad it was useful.

And, in case you haven't seen it -- *points at his apology above*
Rose Fox[info]rosefox on October 12th, 2009 09:14 pm (UTC)
You may want to change the link to this cached version, since the original post has been deleted.
shweta_narayan: mangatar[info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 05:12 am (UTC)
Thanks! Edited to do so.
Ken[info]yessod on October 13th, 2009 01:00 am (UTC)
I generally find that when someone says "I'm not a racist, I have a friend who's ***" I can instantly discount anything else they have ever said.
shweta_narayan[info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 05:22 am (UTC)
Yeah, in general I find the same.
In this case, he apologized in a way that leaves me inclined to offer the benefit of the doubt.
Itinerant hacker adventuress: findruinna[info]thewronghands on October 13th, 2009 03:14 am (UTC)
Go you! I'm late to the discussion, but I'm really glad that he read it, considered it, changed his mind, and apologized pretty well. Speaking up mattered. You rock.
shweta_narayan: happy[info]shweta_narayan on October 13th, 2009 05:23 am (UTC)
Thank you! I am certainly glad I spoke up, given this :)
( 67 comments — Leave a comment )