You are viewing shweta_narayan

 
 
15 September 2010 @ 04:05 pm
Ugh.  
Anti-immigrant, assimilationist if-they-don't-pass-as-white-it's-their-fault rage-inducing xenophobic BULLSHIT warning.

Thanks, Ms. Moon. I loved The Speed of Dark, but now you're joining Harlan Ellison in the Box of Shame.

Anyone I recommended that book to? Unrecommended.

Via maevele.

ETA: Just emailed the Wiscon concom about her being a GoH next year, and how I am NOT okay with that in light of this. No idea if it'll accomplish anything, of course, but it does make me feel uncomfortable/unsafe (and I'm not Muslim, it's got to be a tiny tiny fraction of how she's hurting directly-affected folk) so.

Going off the Wiscon contact page, since I wasn't sure who to write to, I wrote to concom35 [at] wiscon [dot] info.

<ETA2 So apparently people with less fuzzy brains can parse more of that post than I can, and it's EVEN WORSE than I thought. Wow. Apparently Ms Moon thinks the European settlers here were happy community-builders who were welcomed with open arms and... assimilated... or something. Also that the Native people of this continent don't exist?
 
 
Current Mood: angryangry
 
 
 
( 161 comments — Leave a comment )
Dr. Kvetch: what?rose_lemberg on September 15th, 2010 11:20 pm (UTC)
Sweet Jesus on a stick.
opheliastornopheliastorn on September 15th, 2010 11:21 pm (UTC)
Ugh.
aries_jordan: Celestinaaries_jordan on September 15th, 2010 11:24 pm (UTC)
*groan* Give me strength. And you too. *hugs*
dsmoendsmoen on September 15th, 2010 11:28 pm (UTC)
I'd ignored the post because it was so long, but clearly that was a mistake. I'm going to re-read it all this weekend along with its comments.
Becca Stareyes: truthbeccastareyes on September 15th, 2010 11:33 pm (UTC)
Same here. I hate it when authors I like -- and who even have made some good and salient posts that I agree with -- suddenly reveal surprise!bigotry.
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 15th, 2010 11:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - beccastareyes on September 15th, 2010 11:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - opheliastorn on September 15th, 2010 11:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dsmoen on September 15th, 2010 11:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 12:41 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dsmoen on September 16th, 2010 12:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 12:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 15th, 2010 11:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dsmoen on September 15th, 2010 11:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 12:51 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - beccastareyes on September 16th, 2010 03:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - opheliastorn on September 15th, 2010 11:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dsmoen on September 15th, 2010 11:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - opheliastorn on September 15th, 2010 11:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dsmoen on September 15th, 2010 11:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 12:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - samhenderson on September 16th, 2010 12:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - opheliastorn on September 16th, 2010 12:25 am (UTC) (Expand)
gwynnega: Barry Ryangwynnega on September 15th, 2010 11:30 pm (UTC)
Ugh, that is horrible.
Annetxanne on September 15th, 2010 11:34 pm (UTC)
Well, that makes it easier to cut my book budget. (Also, God *damn* it. _Remnant Population_ is one of the only books in existence with an old woman as the protagonist.)
shweta_narayan: aieeeeshweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 12:52 am (UTC)
Yeah. Also :(
(no subject) - james_nicoll on September 16th, 2010 06:04 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - txanne on September 16th, 2010 11:24 am (UTC) (Expand)
Samantha Hendersonsamhenderson on September 15th, 2010 11:34 pm (UTC)
At first I'm all "I don't see the problem," and then comes the big fat o_0. Yikes.
Tithenai: girlgenius ragetithenai on September 15th, 2010 11:41 pm (UTC)
THIS. I didn't see this the day of because the first several paragraphs are all "civic duty" and "tra la la citizenship" and then she gets all "WHICH BRINGS ME TO MY BIGOTRY" and I hadn't read that far.
(no subject) - gwynnega on September 15th, 2010 11:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rose_lemberg on September 15th, 2010 11:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - samhenderson on September 15th, 2010 11:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Yup - rose_lemberg on September 16th, 2010 12:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Yup - samhenderson on September 16th, 2010 12:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 12:56 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - opheliastorn on September 16th, 2010 01:25 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 04:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - elsmi on September 16th, 2010 05:51 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 05:57 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - elsmi on September 16th, 2010 06:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 06:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - yarram on September 16th, 2010 01:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rose_lemberg on September 16th, 2010 02:25 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - alan_yee on September 16th, 2010 02:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rose_lemberg on September 16th, 2010 03:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ressie_noldo on September 16th, 2010 01:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 04:35 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pantryslut on September 16th, 2010 10:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 10:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pantryslut on September 17th, 2010 02:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 17th, 2010 02:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rose_lemberg on September 15th, 2010 11:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Polenthpolenth on September 15th, 2010 11:43 pm (UTC)
I drifted after the first few paragraphs when I first saw it, so didn't realise how it ended. Now I have read it... oh dear. It's not just the immigration and anti-Islam thing (which are the most obvious). I was struck by the white settlers arriving in America being portrayed as equivalent to modern immigration. To believe it's in any way equivalent, you'd have to pretend the genocide didn't happen, that white settlers had to assimilate into a dominate Native American culture and that Native Americans had the power to send the settlers home (but didn't, after deciding they were okay after all).

To say it's revisionist history is an understatement.
opheliastornopheliastorn on September 15th, 2010 11:49 pm (UTC)
And the only reference to Native Americans in her entire screed was a joke! W. T. F.
You understood it? I have questions! - shweta_narayan on September 15th, 2010 11:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: You understood it? I have questions! - naomikritzer on September 16th, 2010 12:03 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: You understood it? I have questions! - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 12:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: You understood it? I have questions! - naomikritzer on September 16th, 2010 12:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: You understood it? I have questions! - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 08:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: You understood it? I have questions! - rose_lemberg on September 16th, 2010 12:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: You understood it? I have questions! - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 12:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: You understood it? I have questions! - tithenai on September 16th, 2010 12:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: You understood it? I have questions! - erzebet on September 16th, 2010 09:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: You understood it? I have questions! - tithenai on September 16th, 2010 02:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: You understood it? I have questions! - beccastareyes on September 16th, 2010 12:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: You understood it? I have questions! - rose_lemberg on September 16th, 2010 12:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: You understood it? I have questions! - beccastareyes on September 16th, 2010 12:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: You understood it? I have questions! - polenth on September 16th, 2010 12:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rose_lemberg on September 16th, 2010 12:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
cherie: Angel - Smile Timenalathilion on September 16th, 2010 12:22 am (UTC)
I read that entire entry. Now I feel confused, outraged and disgusted. The part I enjoyed the most was her replies to comments 'that was not what I wrote/meant.'

O.o

I kept thinking what the bloody fuck and then to see people agreeing with those sentiments. Just. No.
shweta_narayanshweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 12:58 am (UTC)
confused, outraged and disgusted.

That's a much better description of how I feel than I managed :)
David Wesleydwesley on September 16th, 2010 12:24 am (UTC)
I don't understand the anger being directed towards Ms. Moon. She presented her thoughts in a coherent manner, and I agreed with most of it, with one major exception: I don't believe the mosque builders "should have known" that the majority of Americans would be upset. I've been to "ground zero" and don't understand why anyone would give a rip what was being built two blocks away. I think the majority of people who are taking issue with the mosque either 1) don't realize it's two blocks away, or 2) know it's two blocks away but don't really have a tangible grasp of what that physically means, or 3) are bigots looking for an excuse to hate. I suspect Ms Moon falls into the second category. Ms. Moon's comments even on the ground zero issue would be reasonable and appropriate if they were in fact building a mosque on ground zero (which of course they are not).

But, I can easily express my disagreement with Ms Moon in the spirit of free speech, without feeling uncomfortable or unsafe. Free speech is not only the law, but is also ingrained in the American culture. It's the kind of thing that we are at risk of losing from our culture if we don't have some level of assimilation from new citizens. So, please help me understand. Why do you feel so threatened by her comments?
shweta_narayan: authorpic1shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 12:38 am (UTC)
Dave, I'm asking Nathaniel to respond to you, both because he just responded to ms Moon and I can't say it better, and because I suspect you will hear this better from another white man.

You were pretty dismissive of my attempts to explain some of these things at Clarion, so I hope you'll understand why I don't really feel that I can explain it to you.
(no subject) - dwesley on September 16th, 2010 07:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 09:29 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dwesley on September 16th, 2010 11:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 08:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - voidmonster on September 17th, 2010 05:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - maryrobinette on September 18th, 2010 01:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - diony on September 21st, 2010 01:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dwesley on September 21st, 2010 02:04 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - voidmonster on September 21st, 2010 07:50 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - trinker on September 19th, 2010 07:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - tithenai on September 16th, 2010 12:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dwesley on September 16th, 2010 09:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 09:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dwesley on September 16th, 2010 11:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - yarram on September 16th, 2010 07:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 09:06 pm (UTC) (Expand)
So, my fish died... - polenth on September 16th, 2010 11:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: So, my fish died... - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 08:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: So, my fish died... - polenth on September 17th, 2010 02:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: So, my fish died... - shweta_narayan on September 17th, 2010 02:45 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - popelizbet on September 17th, 2010 07:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dwesley on September 21st, 2010 02:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
Two blocks from... - trinker on September 19th, 2010 07:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - elsmi on September 16th, 2010 12:57 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dsmoen on September 16th, 2010 06:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dwesley on September 16th, 2010 09:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 09:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - samhenderson on September 16th, 2010 04:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dwesley on September 21st, 2010 02:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - samhenderson on September 21st, 2010 03:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dwesley on September 21st, 2010 06:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - samhenderson on September 21st, 2010 04:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dwesley on September 21st, 2010 06:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 21st, 2010 06:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - samhenderson on September 21st, 2010 06:49 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 21st, 2010 06:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - samhenderson on September 21st, 2010 06:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - vvvexation on September 21st, 2010 07:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dwesley on September 21st, 2010 06:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 21st, 2010 06:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - vvvexation on September 21st, 2010 08:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - vvvexation on September 21st, 2010 08:11 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 22nd, 2010 02:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - vvvexation on September 22nd, 2010 03:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 22nd, 2010 03:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - samhenderson on September 16th, 2010 12:59 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dsmoen on September 16th, 2010 06:57 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 07:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - samhenderson on September 16th, 2010 04:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mishamish on September 16th, 2010 10:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 10:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - erzebet on September 16th, 2010 09:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - coraa on September 16th, 2010 09:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - erzebet on September 16th, 2010 09:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
-pd-: Citizenshipyarram on September 16th, 2010 12:58 am (UTC)
I got to the bit about "only Mexicans and other Latin@s maintain close ties with their countries of origin" and decided that nothing I could say would change her mind. Others are welcome to try, and I will be delighted if they succeed, but I am so full of WTFCAPSLOCKRAGE that I refuse to engage.

Never mind that IMO, her entire argument is based on ignoring how citizenship is used to marginalize, disenfranchize, and erase people.

I'm starting on the vodka, wanna join me?
Dr. Kvetchrose_lemberg on September 16th, 2010 01:00 am (UTC)
I am writing to Wiscon organizers, want to do the same?

Also, speaking of vodka, I make a killer lemon drop, would you like some?
(no subject) - yarram on September 16th, 2010 01:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rose_lemberg on September 16th, 2010 02:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 04:38 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rose_lemberg on September 16th, 2010 04:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - samhenderson on September 16th, 2010 06:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 09:51 am (UTC) (Expand)
Maevelemaevele on September 16th, 2010 02:16 am (UTC)
I decided this is my new favorite part.
"and not only did the Islamic world in general show indecent glee about the attack"


THE ISLAMIC WORLD. Not just a few radicals, but the Islamic world in general. and not just glee. INDECENT GLEE.

shweta_narayan: aieeeeshweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 04:44 am (UTC)
Re: I decided this is my new favorite part.
And that's an example of said "US forbearance" I suppose -- overgeneralizing, misrepresenting, and accusing, but without the namecalling or violence?
Re: I decided this is my new favorite part. - samhenderson on September 16th, 2010 06:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I decided this is my new favorite part. - trinker on September 19th, 2010 07:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I decided this is my new favorite part. - shweta_narayan on September 19th, 2010 07:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
Alec Austinalecaustin on September 16th, 2010 03:45 am (UTC)
Ugh. One hates to see authors whose work one has enjoyed self-immolate like this.

That doesn't make any of what she said any more defensible, mind.
shweta_narayan: aieeeeshweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 04:38 am (UTC)
Yeah :(
Aliette de Bodard: gruffialiettedb on September 16th, 2010 05:25 am (UTC)
Er, wow. Words fail me. (and my eyes crossed halfway down, and I gave up. The rest of the post promised to be no better than the start)
shweta_narayan: aieeeeshweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 05:28 am (UTC)
In fact the second half is... much, much worse. Or at least more blatantly bad.
(no subject) - aliettedb on September 16th, 2010 09:09 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 09:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
mikandramikandra on September 16th, 2010 06:01 am (UTC)
Just by chance, we had an idiot on the TV this morning who had pretty much the same opinion. I walked out of the gym before I could hurl a medicine ball at the screen.

Why must people think that if you're Muslim/Jewish/oriental-looking/etc., it's somehow OK to be challenged about your commitment to the country where you choose to live, or where your parents chose to move?

OK, so Muslims are apparently not Australians (according to this eejit), and neither are they American (according to Ms Moon), never mind they may have lived all their lives in those countries, and WTF does religion have to do with nationality anyway.

By the same token, Catholics are all Irish (because they were, originally, y'know?) and so WTF don't all the whining Catholics go back to Ireland?

Man, I have no words.

Damn. I did enjoy the two books of hers I've read. Methinks I won't be reading any more in a hurry.
shweta_narayanshweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 09:48 am (UTC)
Well, people who aren't Muslim/Jewish/Asian looking, etc.

(just ftr, while "oriental" is considered a racist term in the US. I understand that's different elsewhere, esp, in the Commonwealth; just figure it's useful to have the info if you didn't already.)

WTF does religion have to do with nationality anyway.

*tries to remember Colbert's line about freedom of religion over here... *

something like, we know there are infinite paths to accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior."
Haddayr Copley-Woodshaddayr on September 16th, 2010 06:02 am (UTC)
I wrote to them, too.
shweta_narayan: authorpic1shweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 09:42 am (UTC)
<3
I don't know if it'll change anything. But at least it's not implicit consent from us.
Coraa: this worries mecoraa on September 16th, 2010 08:08 am (UTC)
Oh, yeerk, and ugh, and cringe. I hadn't seen it to start with because of the tl;dr factor, and now that I have... yeerk, and ugh, and cringe.
shweta_narayan: aieeeeshweta_narayan on September 16th, 2010 09:48 am (UTC)
hugs
Caroline Hootonhooton on September 16th, 2010 11:06 am (UTC)
Oh dear. Elizabeth Moon's post has left me really depressed now.

One day, I hope I can live in a world where we all recognise that being a wanker is something that crosses racial, ethnic and religious divides.

dsmoendsmoen on September 17th, 2010 12:19 am (UTC)
Update: she's deleted all comments and comment-proofed the post and added a snarky note about same at the bottom of the post.
pingback_botpingback_bot on September 17th, 2010 01:31 am (UTC)
"citizenship"
User elsmi referenced to your post from "citizenship" saying: [...] justified [...]
beloved of monsters and women made free: bunny lovepopelizbet on September 17th, 2010 07:26 am (UTC)
Just dropping love for you here. Pick it up when needed. :D
shweta_narayan: authorpic1shweta_narayan on September 17th, 2010 08:14 am (UTC)
Thank you.
The growing tally of ex-friends led me to do another post, and it was a lot harder to write than I'd expected, so I'm a pick it up now cause I need it.

*hugs*
(no subject) - popelizbet on September 17th, 2010 01:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
maryrobinettemaryrobinette on September 18th, 2010 01:32 am (UTC)
Just wanted to thank you for expressing why the first part of the post made you angry. I knew that parts of it made me a little twitchy but had generally been nodding my head along thinking "yes, yes, we should all try to be good citizens." I'm ashamed to say that I was not thinking through the full implications of the assimilation theme.

Anyway, I don't like that these examples exist but am grateful that you take the time to articulate your thoughts when they come up.
( 161 comments — Leave a comment )